What We Can Learn From The Kosta Koufos Trade

When the Nuggets traded Kosta Koufos on draft night it clearly signaled that they felt it was time to turn over the starting job to JaVale McGee.

But it also signaled something else, a belief that they have and one that in the end may come back to hurt them.

It signaled that they, like plenty of other teams see potential more in physical gifts than in mental ones.

Now that makes sense, after all in the case of two similar players the guy who can run faster and jump higher has a clear advantage in potential.

But the Nuggets didn’t have two similar players.

They had one in Kosta Koufos who was a jack-of-all-trades but a master of none, someone who unlike any other big in the Nuggets rotation understood rotations, both on offense and defense. He constantly made the right cut into space so that Andre Iguodala or Ty Lawson could find him for a shot right at the rim and constantly made the right rotation on defense to meet an opposing player in front of the rim.

In the end Kosta never did anything at an elite level but he never pretended or tried to. He played within himself, understanding his strengths and limitations and played very well.

On the other hand the Nuggets had JaVale McGee. Someone with incredible length and athletic ability but also someone who almost never made the right rotation, who constantly was attempting to do things he wasn’t able to, who at points looks like he is playing a game he just learned.

And yet the Nuggets valued the athleticism, hoping that in his sixth year, on his fifth coach, something will click.

And it may.

After all big men tend to develop a bit later, taking more time to understand things like rotations since they typically have the most responsibility in that regard. But the Nuggets had someone who already understood those things in Koufos, who also happens to be a bit younger than McGee.

It isn’t hard to see Koufos getting better as he adds some more strength to help him finish at the rim better, or hold off more physical centers on the glass, and even as he learns and understands more of the game which could help things such as passing and even rebounding. He probably won’t ever be great but he will stick in the league as a very good option at center, someone who will crash the offensive glass, block a few shots and not try and do too much.

It is harder, much harder, to see how JaVale gets better because at this point it just doesn’t seem like he will ever understand the game as well as Koufos did this past season. Maybe Shaw is finally the coach that can make him do so but I find it hard to believe that none of the five McGee has had before have tried.

But the Nuggets made their decision. In a league filled with athletic specimens they would rather have another of those with a small understanding of the game over an average specimen with a great understanding of it.

Those two types of players have four different outcomes.

The great mental mind can improve upon his less gifted body by adding more strength and training hard and potentially become a very good player. While greatness isn’t common they normally end up being someone always valuable to a team.

The great physical body can gain that mental prowess and become a great player beyond the realm that the physically limited player can hit.

If they don’t though the consequences are ugly; because if not that type of player tends to become useless and the franchise that lost the gamble pays dearly.

The Nuggets made their choice. But was it the right one?

The following two tabs change content below.
  • TeeNasty

    He is a major gamble that will work out. Kosta Koufos was an overachieving 3rd string that had the benefit of playing with 4 offensive threats at any given time. The only reason he got left alone under the basket for high percentage shots. Are you going to slide to the open man (Ty, AI, Gallo, WC, Faried) or are you gonna stay on Kosta hoping they don’t pass him the ball? Give JaVale some minutes with the starting lneup (probably with Darrell because Faried’s game doesn’t pair well with McGee) and watch how his numbers jump. Kosta’s success was a product of the team around him in my opinion.

    • Charliemyboy

      Let’s have JaVale spend a few years in the NBA, like Kosta. Then he will learn. Right? Why hasn’t he? JaVale was around the same team. You can only blame the coach so much. Why did Kosta learn? Does Duncan have JaVale’s skills? Too bad about physical over mental.

      • TeeNasty

        What? How does one lose their starting job (and for that matter go from 3rd to 1st string) because of their performance in the off season? He had just been signed to a $44M contract and wasn’t even given a chance to start! I love GK, but I don’t see how that move is on anyone but the coach sir.

        • LBJ

          I suspect he was given plenty of chances to start. KK just outplayed him in practice – and once the season started in the games.

          • TeeNasty

            So the player we gave a giant contract to, lost his job in practice?! Not a game, not a game, not a game… It’s not like we were planning on winning a championship at the beginning of the year. You give the player you signed to a long-term major contract a chance to grow with our young core. We knew he was a project when we signed the contract, how’s he supposed to get better by sitting on the bench?

            • airvaid

              Hey how about earning that starting spot in outplaying that average guy in training or how about making an impact in the minutes you get rather than doing shit like this:
              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EY5q63wEu9Q

              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdb3vv-5ygI

              • TeeNasty

                I feel he earned the right to start last year by his performance in the playoffs against the Lakers (Bynum) the year before. He is a beast and just needs time (more than 18 minutes per game) to grow with the core of this team. Good thing Josh Kroenke agrees with me and not you I guess!

              • airvaid

                We will find out in about 5 months whether it’s a good thing or not.

              • sherlock

                I don’t think anybody has said McGee never ever makes a mistake. But that is what playing time in GAMES is for, to learn from the mistakes. Not be banished to the bench for a mere 18 minutes a game. KK is not a starter anywhere else in the league, he’s a solid backup. We gave McGee a large contract we NEED to know if he can live up to it or if we need to move on. Based on last year we still do no have any idea what we have in McGee, but we knew all along that KK is an average back up.

              • dynamo.joe

                I’m sure you said the same about Asik. You were wrong then, too.

              • LBJ

                I agree he had a good series against the Lakers. That is what got him his extension. Unfortunately for him – he had 29 other matchups to worry about (since Bynum didn’t play). As we witnessed last season – he didn’t handle a lot of them very well.

              • Pickles1731

                So based on your stupid video you just posted, Javale McGee is the only guy in NBA history to; 1. Throw a bad outlet pass. 2. Throw himself an alley oop off the backboard. 3. Miss an easy layup (look at the layup Ewing missed to go to the 1995 finals on Youtube). 4. Or goal tend the basketball. The man has like 10 bad plays in his career and that constitutes him not deserving minutes? Worst argument I have ever heard. The media makes Javale look like an idiot when in reality he is one of our smartest, nicest, and most intelligent sounding players on our team. Stop trolling come up with a real argument against him.

              • ryanvdonk

                that’s funny that the video has a missed layup, kosta missed one or two PER GAME. it drove me nuts how many shots within 5 feet he missed because he would go up soft instead of dunking.

              • David Acker

                How many passes did KK drop around the rim. I would say 2 min per game. Dude should have been avg double digit points per game but he couldn’t even hold the passes. Nice guy and very serviceable back up center at best

              • dynamo.joe

                You are almost certainly wrong because there was never a game where 2 plays were run for K2.

                If given the same minutes per game as K2, Ty Lawson and Gallo would squeak by your double digit points requirement.

                Just a ridiculous assertion on your part.

              • David Acker

                KK has hands of stone and on Ty’s dribble drives how many times did he fumble the pass away. What’s ridiculous is that you would compare K2 to the Nuggets two best players and future all-stars. If given the same minutes his flaws would show even more. If you read my statement if he didn’t drop so many passes around the rim he could have or possibly even should have averaged double digit points per game. That is not too much to ask of your starting center is it????

                Ridiculous no! How many plays do they run for the manimal??

                GO AWAY

              • dynamo.joe

                In 22 minutes Kenneth Faried scores 9.03 pts. So he doesn’t meet your 10pts per game criteria either if given the limited time that K2 got.

                So presumably, by your logic, Faried also has hands of stone and can’t finish around the rim?

              • David Acker

                Read this slowly Mr Dynamo. Players like Faried make the most of their opportunities around the rim without the benefit of plays being run for them. In MY OPINION KK did not. There is no stat that you can look up to tell us how many times he fumbled the ball away while he was around the rim. Once again in MY OPINION he could have averaged double digit pts per game if he didn’t have hands of stone.

                But all of that matters not because his playoff average of 3 pts and 3 rbs per game last year are gone.
                Now again read this slowly GO AWAY!

              • dynamo.joe

                You are right. Trying to teach remedial math and elementary logic to someone constitutionally incapable of understanding either is an exercise in frustration and futility for both teacher and pupil.

              • David Acker

                GO AWAY TROLL! KK Lover he’s gone get over it he wasn’t that good and he wilted in the playoffs. Nuff said

              • dynamo.joe

                Was a lie the 1st time someone said it and it’s a lie now. His 2FG% was one of the highest in the NBA.

              • ryanvdonk

                how is it a lie that he missed close shots regularly? i didn’t say he missed all of them, with the majority of his shots being within 5 feet from the hoop, he should be hitting a high percentage, it’s not like they were in post ups.

              • dynamo.joe

                That’s like saying Puig sucks cuz he isn’t batting 1.000. What’s he doing with all those wasted batting opportunities?

                Every player in the NBA regularly misses easy shots, from LeBron on down to Darko Milicic. K2 is 62% at the rim so, yes, he misses 38% of the time.

                Here is the results of what I think you guys are crying about. Kosta goes up soft and tries to lay it in and gets blocked.

                http://bkref.com/tiny/LHLhZ
                It’s true his lay ups sometimes get blocked. It’s also true that he is among the very best in the NBA at making sure that lay up goes in the basket.

              • ryanvdonk

                the difference is most of those players miss contested shots, kosta misses open ones. im not saying he sucks, he’s a very good backup, but his softness is a weakness, and his percentage would have been even higher had he got angry and dunked more…and not sure who puig is, but it’s baseball so i don’t pay attention unless i need to fall asleep.

            • Native Nugget

              I think it a tough call as a coach. If you reward effort and good fundamentals by playing your hardest working players who make the fewest mistakes, then you set a tone for the whole team. On the other hand, some players need time to develop. Karl had a great system for long term development (assistant coaches and trainers) and high standards but was weak at directly developing young talent. The Wizards weren’t known for doing much of anything. Hopefully Shaw can keep the standards high AND develop young talent.

          • sherlock

            I think ‘suspecting” that KK outplayed McGee in practice is a bit of a stretch. I think it was pretty obvious that GK did NOT want McGee and didn’t like his hand being forced by management. KK was a big Miller.

            • toluene hawk

              GK stated numerous times McGee came off the bench so his playing time was with Andre Miller and not with Kenneth Faried.

              • LBJ

                Probably because Andre fed him lob passes for about half of points

            • LBJ

              So if he doesn’t learn his defensive rotations, how to block out or a post up move (or even inbound the frigging ball) in his 18 minutes a game over a 90 game season – we fix that by giving him more playing time?????

        • Charliemyboy

          He did start. In the playoffs. Was he there? Potential is now, after 5 years. It’s the mind, not the body. Karl loved Duncan: why? Fundamentals. Love JaVale; one year to prove it, or out and down.

          • TeeNasty

            The worst time to make a line up change is in the playoffs. Plus, this goes to my point about Faried not being a good pairing with McGee. Nether of them space the floor.

            • Charliemyboy

              The key question is how much is innate talent, and how much can be learned. There needs to be a time and effort limit on learning. Again, potential is now or it’s never reached. One more year and we’ll know. Love the team.

      • EWilson

        Unfortunately, I think McGee’s time with the Wizards not only didn’t prepare him for the NBA, but actually helped him to develop bad habits. So, it is going to take some time to break him of those habits and teach him how to actually play the post. Kosta was more fundamentally sound last year because he’d been with a good coaching staff for several years and learned how to play. McGee needs the same time to learn.

      • Corey Tram

        Yeah and did you watch when duncan took koufos to school when spurs played them? When javle was on duncan he couldnt post him up and got blocked twice when he did. KOUFOS SUCKS bro get over it

        • Charliemyboy

          Yes, JaVale did very well against Duncan. But he was inconsistent. KK was much more consistent throughout the year. I would have preferred to let Mozzy go, as KK was more reliable except in the playoffs. I think some of it is GK’s system for bigs. I hope JaVale works out and get’s off Shaktin. Then we’ll know, right?

          • avarra

            Most people forget though that K2 got schooled by power forwards and centers that were physical. Al Jefferson tortured K2 regularly and he’s 4″ shorter than Koufas. Let’s not even talk about the playoffs… He was GK’s crutch, he was soft and he clanked layups on a CONSTANT basis. It was time for him to go. Javale is an athletic freak that just needs some time to develop and Moz is huge and can’t be pushed around.

            • Corey Tram

              AGREE with avarra. I lost count of all the times Iggy found koufos open for a wide open pass underneath basket and he would A.) drop ball or B.) miss easy lay up C.) Put ball on floor and then get blocked. And mozzy aint bad, was just never givin a chance. I remember in the lakers series he did decent unlike koufos who was a no show in that series as well smh

              • dynamo.joe

                And had knee surgery as soon as the series was over. But, hey that shouldn’t have effected his play at all.

          • David Acker

            Playoffs is all that matters! That’s why GK is gonski!

            • dynamo.joe

              I would say that’s a valid argument for a coach, but at least somewhat less valid for a player. You can change your minute distribution, but you can’t really change your coach.

              You can easily make the argument “JaVale can’t play 36 minutes/game for a whole season, but in the post season with no back-to-backs we expect 36 minutes as a minimum. We are keeping Kosta to preserve JaVale for when it counts, the post-season”.

              • David Acker

                ??

  • Justin Feltman

    As a Wizards fan, I gotta say I miss him so much. Since we are not very good, his entertainment value was bar none and we cannot replace it…

  • herpderpnuggets

    i think its a good move for this year, javale’s potential is through the roof and his athleticism is like none other in this league. If Javale can show improvements this year, great; if he cant, then i think he is a lost cause. I believe that coach shaw will definitely put a lot of work and faith into Javale this year.

  • airvaid

    What happens if JaVale doesn’t learn? We have that backup smart guy who
    started for us in a 57 win season.. oh wait we traded him away.

    Rather than bringing in a center that would complement Faried, we are bringing in a PF that would compliment JaVale? WTF?

    So we decide that we should build around the goofball who does stupid shit all the time and drop the hardworking kid who gives it his all on the court. Yay!

    • sherlock

      KK didn’t win the Nuggets games. Personally I don’t think we should have traded him, especially for what we got in return. However, McGee could be an All Star center in the league with the right coaching. If KK being gone means he doesn’t have to look over his shoulder and helps with his progression that’s ok.

      Losing an at best average center in KK isn’t going to make or break our season. You make it seem like we traded away Shaq in his prime to take a chance on McGee. If McGee blows his chance it’s not like we are missing much, we can find anther KK type. It’s the athleticism in McGee that is hard to find.

      • avarra

        Sherlock is the voice of reason. You guys act like K2 was the second coming of Wilt Chamberlain or something. He’s not. He’s a below average center who had reached his ceiling. I absolutely don’t dis his work ethic, his fundamentals or his “teamness”. I absolutely appreciate his time with the Nuggets – I really do, but guys come on.

        I’d MUCH rather take a chance on Javale because his ceiling is MUCH higher and he has the chance to be something really special – he just needs a coaching staff and a front office that says, “We’re willing to help you develop and if we put you on the floor and you make some mistakes, it’s cool. You get to stay out there and learn how to play.We believe in you.”

        No one in the league was scared of K2 defending them. No one. Javale is intimidating because he either blocks your shot or alters it and it doesn’t matter if you’re Earl Clark or Tim Duncan – JM is the real deal – he just needs a chance and some time to shine.

        • sherlock

          Nailed it, I’m glad I’m not the only one who sees the reality here. McGee’s ability to swat any shot at the rim makes everyone in the league nervous. Now the flip side is he wants to TRY to swat everything that comes at him, silly fouls, goaltending etc..but that’s where good coaching comes into play. Just look at his time so far in Denver compared to Washington, the guy can be coached, I think he wants to be coached. He’s either going to help us take that next step or we will be right where we have been the last 8 seasons. KK was a hard worker and full of heart but that’s what makes him a solid back up but it’s not going to cost us a single win.

          • dynamo.joe

            You are correct, it will not cost us a single win, it will cost us 7 wins. Maybe as much as 10, if Shaw is stupid enough to give Darrell Arthur some of his minutes.

            • sherlock

              I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I don’t see how an average center will cost us 7 wins, but to each his own.

        • Corey Tram

          thank god there are others. Koufos sucks, he let bogut beat him up and was so slow.

  • Corey Tram

    im tired of all you dumb Koufos lovers. The dude sucks. All I hear is this fundamentally sound stuff and watching the first round against warriors this year made me sick. You guys act like he’s light years ahead of Mcgee. Look what happened when Karl finally Started Mcgee game 5? We were killin them in first half. Then karl took Mcgee out and played his stupid small ball and they almost came back and won and in game 6 they actually did come and win. I said at end of season, I want karl gone. check! Koufos gone, check! miller gone! crossing my fingers!

    • Charliemyboy

      57 wins gone, check! 40 wins here, check!

      • avarra

        Charlie… lol – I respect your opinion sir – but K2 was NOT responsible for 17 wins. People said that about Melo when he left – and that was somewhat understandable because he was our lone all-star and #1 scoring option. K2 was out there and ummm… he took up space, got a few put backs and he grabbed some rebounds for us. I think he may have even blocked a shot once. lol By the start of the season NO ONE is gonna miss him.

        • Corey Tram

          Now Andre miller has to go, he’s the only weak link left from the Karl era hahahha

        • Charliemyboy

          Ah, do you see Iggy on our team? Ah, adjustments to an untried coach? Appearance of reluctance and malfunction? Just responding to the now; it may change. OK, so we will stay at 57 wins or take the conference?

          • avarra

            We’re not talking about AI and we’re not really talking about the coach. (Other than his ability to help our young players develop) Since you responded to Corey’s post, I assumed that you were saying that we were dropping 17 games by virtue of the fact that K2 was being traded.

            Shaw has a history of helping young players develop, most notably the stars on Indiana’s team. We’re not talking about Shaw’s ability to coach on this particular forum thread.

            To get back to the subject of your line about reluctance and malfunction – GK was terribly reluctant to play Javale and so stubbornly played K2 to horrible effect in the playoffs, which I agree – was the malfunction.

            • sherlock

              Bingo!

            • Charliemyboy

              To those in the know, like Barkley, et. al., Karl is a hall-of-fame coach; a man of character and determination and a role model. I am muffed at letting him go but suspect it was somewhat his fault in over demanding and being 62 years old (face it). Having been riffed because of age I am defensive to him. But that is life. Having said that I like to get a rise out the folks here and actually I am optimistic for our guys this year; still not happy with the mediocrity displayed by Josh and team, however,,but we will wait and see. What IF JaVale meets expectations… he will be a hall of famer.

              • sherlock

                Couldn’t agree more Charlie, Karl is a hall of fame coach. A great man and someone I would want my children to be coached by. And your right again, I think his age and stubborn-ness played a role in him getting fired. He wanted to prove he could do things his way, as old people often do, and was reluctant to the change going on around him.

            • Charliemyboy

              The malfunction resulted in 57 wins. Now we can see 10 more losses due to that malfunction. Karl played Javale in the playoffs… where was he? Granted, Karl was desperate at that time as he got out-coached. But I was amazed at how his malfunction beat more playoff teams than another franchise except Miami during the year. Usually the year’s victories translate to the playoffs; Karl just couldn’t adjust. Never make that 57 again, now I have to live with more frustration during the year (hope I’m wrong). Karl is hall of fame; Shaw is a rookie.

              • avarra

                Charlie – 57 wins were definitely awesome, I agree. Yes – we beat a lot of playoff bound teams along the way. Yay for us. But if we get by those same teams IN THE PLAYOFFS then who cares how many regular season wins we got.

                By the way – Karl is a HoF coach to be sure but he got schooled in the playoffs by Mark Jackson who is… a second year coach. Hmmm. I was a big GK supporter for his whole time in Denver and have been since his days coaching Seattle. But we all have to face the fact that he’s done. He’s too stubborn and set in his ways to be an effective nba coach at this stage in his career. We’ve seen the evidence of it year after year. Shaw is our guy now and I’m behind him 100% – Thank you GK for being an awesome human being and a great coach. End scene.

              • Charliemyboy

                There is an interesting dynamic here. What dismays me is Karl being out of a job; yes, due to his honed attitude, one which made him a hall of famer and 57 game winner; but two, his health and age. Hollins didn’t have the health problem, but does have his ‘attitude’ and age. Where is he? If Karl had been a suck-up man, saying yes last year or six months ago, and played McGee+ and Miller-, he might still be here. But alas, pride commeth before the fall. Same pride as with Hollins. Lessons here: Sadly, standing up as a man to one’s convictions can bite the hand that feeds you if it differs. Flexibility and humility evidently would have prevailed. But it is difficult to be pushed around for a man in an occupation demanding conviction, swimming with egos.

              • avarra

                I would agree with you Charlie. I don’t believe that the coach and FO were on the same page when it came to young talent. GK was already here when Josh took over and I think GK got along much better with Stan than with Josh.

                To be honest, if GK had had more post-season success, his stubbornness could be forgiven. But when what you’re doing isn’t translating to the kind of success that your employer demands AND you refuse to accept his/her recommendations as to how you can change things a bit AND they’re paying you millions of dollars… Well, let’s just say that in most jobs, not doing what your boss wants you to do will probably get you fired.

          • David Acker

            The Nuggets might not even make the playoffs next season. They need some shooters. Imagine if we had more that 1 guy that could make a jump shot. That would open up the lane for Javelle. If management doesn’t get a couple of shooters Den may not get to 50 wins. The Clips just got stronger and you gotta think Dal, Hou, LAL, GS are all going to be better than last year.

            • Charliemyboy

              Say we don’t get Iggy. Would Ellis be there? Bad fix?

              • David Acker

                Not sure he is a good scorer and assist man but he has a really low percentage besides the fact he has a reputation for being a ball hog

              • Charliemyboy

                The key there is if he is coachable. If he is we will be better. If not, we’ve got another JR. It looks like he is our primary target not that Iggy crapped on us. He averages 19 points per game.

              • David Acker

                Maybe Delfino?? The Nuggets inactivity leads me to belive that the youngsters are going to get their shot and that this will be more a let’s see what we have kind of year than we can compete for a championship type of year.

      • Corey Tram

        yeah 57 wins and another first round loss, whoop D Dooo, I rather not make playoffs and get higher draft pick then get embarrassed like that.

        • Charliemyboy

          Not me. I like wins. The playoffs should be an extension of the season. This year was an aberrance due to GK’s poor game adjustments. But he could coach during the season. Don’t count on 57 wins brother.

      • Pickles1731

        Seriously 40 wins? So if Koufos is worth 17 wins then that means that Lawson is worth around 40 wins. If Lawson gets hurt we might not win a single game this year! Oh no!

        • avarra

          LOL Pickles! That’s hilarious! And Corey, I agree. You pile on the wins so that you can get into the playoffs and try to win a championship. Getting bounced in the first round 8 times in the last 9 years is NOT something to brag about.

          I can’t WAIT until we play Memphis next year so we can all watch Javale and Moz completely dominate K2. :) As K2 gets dragged off the court by his new coach, crying in misery the announcer will say, “Hmmm K2 got schooled worse than when he was with Denver in the playoffs, but hey – he didn’t make any mistakes. Someone get that poor man some tissues.”

        • Charliemyboy

          You’re getting yourself in a pickle, Pickles. Illogical extension does not a reality make. Whole team last year; whole team this year.

          • sherlock

            Engrish must not be your first language bro. Nothing in that post made sense.

            • Charliemyboy

              Only to the educated.

          • Pickles1731

            All I am saying is that it is ridiculous to state that the Nuggets trading their average C who had 8 points and 7 boards a game is going to drop us from 3rd seed in the West to the lottery next year. Koufos was solid but I wouldn’t have even considered him one of our best 5 players last year. Losing your 6th or 7th best player does not constitute that many losses. Shaw will lead us to the playoffs every year he is here as long as Ty Lawson is healthy.

            • Charliemyboy

              I can buy one average player not impacting that much. But why didn’t Mozzy start? Can he play 20 minutes plus (questioned on other posts here), when JaVale gets tired? I kind of hope Randolf get it. KK was steady (sans playoffs), and JaVale s/h stepped up then. Mozzy had his chance and yet Josh thinks he knew how to get synergy better than Karl. This is contrary to what the team, Ty, et. al., said during the year; they loved KK. So, let’s wait and see. Collective decisions don’t quite mix w/our previous management. Well see which was on its way to the top.

    • dynamo.joe

      The other day someone brought up the game in February when we played the bucks and Sam Dalembert rocked the Nuggets to the tune of, I believe, 35 and 17. Every bit of which was produced against JaVale McGee. That’s what you are going to see against every offense oriented big in the league this season.

      Having said that McGee will balance that out to some degree with his offense. JaVale is a defender only in regards to blocks, which are a poor but pretty defensive skill, but he is a proficient scorer. He is MUCH closer to being Kareem than Bill Russell.

  • heykyleinsf

    I’m counting 26 comments plus the main article..
    No mention of how this really affects the team…
    suddenly we not only have to keep Timofey Mozgov,
    but we are depending on him now for 82 games.
    McGee will have times of greatness and times of silliness
    hopefully not youtube highlight in a bad way silliness.
    but trending for good or bad in a season of growing.
    But this means up to 20 minutes of Mozzy a night.

    We’re not only stuck with him.. we’re depending on him.

    To me.. that’s depressing no matter how you slice anything else.

    • toluene hawk

      Anthony Randolph is still on The Nuggets if they really need depth in the front court.

      • heykyleinsf

        I don’t think it’s a matter of “if”
        Also he’s underweight at 6″11 and 225.
        He showed me a lot.. IMHO he’s a far better plan B
        than Mozzy.
        But the problem is.. our PF are undersized as it is.
        I think of Randolph as a PF right now..
        I didn’t ever think of him as a true 5..
        but I guess we had Nene there like that

    • avarra

      I disagree with one statement you made, it’s not depressing at all. Shaw has a history of developing young players, especially big men. I’m eager to see him work his magic on Moz, Faried and Javale.

      Oh – and the reason the K2 trade affects the team is because now Javale gets the chance we believe he should have. The chance to start, the chance to make mistakes along the way and the chance to really shine. The Nuggets will be much better for it believe me.

      • Corey Tram

        bro, whats up with all these idiots that act like koufos was the savior of the nuggets. How pathetic! if we lost lawson and gallinari, that would be depressing, not that loser koufos

        • Charliemyboy

          Corey, you are not reading. The trade was flippant. We received less. We could have been better off by playing JaVale and keeping KK, not relying on him. Mozzy is too fuzzy. KK had little talent and much heart.

          • sherlock

            The point of the trade is KK is a crutch, he does nothing well, he’s not taking us anywhere. The trade was a wash. DA if he can stay healthy can run the floor well, KK not so much, DA has mid range and 3 pt game, KK not even a little. Defensively it’s probably a wash. The trade was probably a gamble, if DA is healthy he can help our team as he plays to our strengths, watch him in the 2011-2012 season. If that’s who we get, it’ll be alright.

            • Bryan

              Totally agree with this. If Arthur plays like he did in the 2011 season everyone will forget about Kofous midway through next season.

      • sherlock

        I also am eager to see if anything can be made of Moz. He’s bigger, more intimidating and has better post moves then KK does. If Shaw can work with him, like he did Hibert Moz could benefit. Before this season Hibert was just an average big man in Indiana.

        • herpderpnuggets

          I would really like to see what mozzie can do with actual minutes. People forget about these games when he actually saw the court……..

          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMNF-FqCh2A

          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pe1TWI6nq_0

          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAj12rZnlFk

          • heykyleinsf

            appreciate those highlights herpderp
            unfortunately I remember way way too many games
            that saw him confused and lost and clumsy.
            I would love to be wrong and look silly about Mozzy.
            But he didn’t, by any stretch of the imagination,
            show up like those games consistently..
            If he had.. we would be paying him the $$
            instead of Iggy.

        • Brad from Arvada

          Um, intimidating? Moz? Hope you’re right, Sherlock, that the new coaching staff can get the most out of our 5s. Hibbert’s ceiling is out the roof . . . Moz’s/McGee’s? Well, this Nugs season ticket holder hopes one of them is gone before long, and replaced with more of a sure-thing, like a Millsap, Hickson, Landry or Jefferson. (Calm down, Googs, go take your pills before you reply.)

          • herpderpnuggets

            well season ticket owner…you can rest assured thats not gonna happen. if we want to keep iggy, all of those are gonna be way too expensive

            • Brad from Arvada

              Herp, there’s always a way for S&JK to get something done if they want it bad enough. I truly cannot see this ownership being content with a McGee/Moz rotation (and a pretty soft cast of bigs that comprise the rest of our front court) — they’re smarter basketball minds than that.

          • Bryan

            You want one of our centers to be replaced with a power forward?

            • Brad from Arvada

              An NBA team can have success with one or even no traditional centers. Miami has none. And yes, the Nuggets would be better with one of our 7-foot stiffs and any of these bigs — Millsap, Hickson, Landry, or Jefferson — in the front-court rotation than with both of our 7-foot stiffs.

          • googergieger

            Glad you agree I won our last argument.

            • Brad from Arvada

              I like verbal scrums every once in awhile, esp. with passionate Nugs fans, like you, who get all bent out of shape when you don’t agree with ‘em. No, really, Googs, you make some excellent points, and I appreciate your Nugs knowledge and passion.

              • googergieger

                You specifically went out of your way to mention me in a post to get a reply. That is more of an effort than anything I’ve ever posted. Especially seeing as I just use words as they are meant, not without any emotion or intention behind them, that isn’t using them for their purpose. Kids these days, I tell you. Everything has to have an agenda and emotion and something beyond, “I think the guy called you a c-word cause he likes using that word and he thinks you were being one”.

              • Brad from Arvada

                Googs, you have a good balance in your writing of using some decent knowledge along with some comments that are overreactionary, abrasive and just plain not making any sense. I’ll look for future posts from you and make a reply or two just to get a rise out of you. All in good fun, of course . . .

              • googergieger

                Whatever you say, assumption Allen.

      • herpderpnuggets

        This is very true, but when the season starts and then progresses, we have be ok with the mistakes javale makes, and not get furious and want to fire the coach, because javale will take time

  • mark255

    It was a horrible trade. KK is better than DA.
    KK was improoved, he is not an all star center but he helped the team a lot.
    Nuggets had 57 wins.Timo is too heavy , too slow for the style of basketball that
    nuggets play.DA is always injured.
    Nuggets vs Grizzlies KK: 18 points 16 rebounds

    • Bryan

      The style the Nuggets played couldn’t get it done in the playoffs. They style they play is obviously going to change under Shaw. It’ll be interesting to see to what extent.

      Kofous and DA are both backup caliber talents. Arthur clearly has a higher ceiling because he’s more athletic and talented but he’s always injured.

      Kofous is too weak to contribute against playoff caliber centers in grind it out games. Last year Bynum rag dolled until he was benched this year Bogut rag dolled him until he got benched.

      I’m not sure how you can call a trade in which a guy who has been benched for terrible play in his last two post season series’ appearances is horrible.

  • Bill Riordan

    Javale McGee has 5 seasons in the NBA. And in those five seasons he has played lots of minutes for two different teams. He is no longer a young talent who is still developing. He is a vet with lots of minutes behind him and he is not going to get better. This is who he is. Man, Denver fans are so clueless on this, it’s bizarre.

    • sherlock

      He’s 25, he’s just now coming into his prime years in the NBA. So far he has spent 1.5 seasons in Denver. In that time he has already become more of the player he should be then when he was in Washington. The 3 seasons he spent in Washington were a waste of his time, he played no matter what and he developed bad habits because Wash had no one else in their rotation. It’s going to take time for him to learn how to play the right way, he has already shown he can be coached. This is going to be his make or break year, it should have been last year, but that didn’t happen. Ease up off the dude, if after this year he’s still the knuckle head some people on this forum want him to be then bash him. He has the ability to take Denver to the next level, we don’t often get players like that here.

      • Corey Tram

        yeah bill, youre an idiot and a koufos lover, so shut up

        • Charliemyboy

          We call others what we believe we are when we have nothing to say.

      • Bill Riordan

        I don’t know how I became a “Koufos lover,” but that is for the person below. I actually think Mozgov has the most “upside” as they say. But I think both are better than McGee. Contrary to your claim, people don’t want McGee to be a knuckle head. In fact I think it is safe to say that folks wish he was actually a good center. I mean he seems like a perfectly nice young man, unlike some former a-hole superstar who was on the Nuggets. But he is not a good player. And I watched him in DC. He seems to be very much the same player here he was there accept he actually got more minutes there, scored more point and got more rebounds, and made the same number of highlight reel dunks and blocks, as well as the same number of bone headed plays. He has no footwork, no shooting skills, no technique, and his hand/eye coordination is mediocre. But yes, he certainly does have a good vertical leap. Contrary to popular belief, the Wizards suck, but like all NBA teams, the coaches know a surprising amount about basketball. I mean not as much as commentators on-line know, of course, but they know a few things.

        • sherlock

          Bill if you truly believe that KK and Moz have more “upside” then McGee then I don’t know what to tell you. If that were the case KK would have got the 44 million dollar contract last year and Moz wouldn’t have been trade bait all year long. The proof is right in front of your face McGee can be an All Star, nobody can make you see it. Some ppl like you are never satisfied and hate just to hate. Pretty sad, thank god the Nuggets are not run by someone like you who think Kosta Koufos has more upside then JaVale McGee hahaha wow.

          • Charliemyboy

            Did you forget your placating substances?

            • sherlock

              Charlie if you’re going to try to prove to everyone here how intelligent you believe yourself to be, then perhaps instead showing off how capacious your vocabulary is you might actually contribute something of substance to the discussion. Just something to cogitate.

          • Bill Riordan

            Let me clarify. McGee has no upside. He has had ample opportunity to play for 5 years! He is not going to get better. This is who he is. Koufos has little upside. But he is a better center than McGee now and will continue to be. He is not a legit starting center, but he is better than McGee. The $$$ the Nuggets paid for McGee is outrageous and was a waste. Mozgov who is around the same age as McGee is actually the person who has not gotten enough opportunities to show what he can do. So we don’t really know how good he could be. He has, however, been intriguing, in the Olympics and the very few opportunities he has had with the Knicks and the Nuggets. It is he, not McGee, who has upside. He had the misfortune of being on a team in which the coach, Karl, had to play McGee cuz of the $$$ wasted on him. The irony is it still wasn’t enough for Denver’s moronic young owner, and now he is blowing up a 57 win team for McGee. For frigging Javale McGee!!! Are you kidding me? McGee is not young, cuz age is not the point, the five years he has played significant minutes for two teams is what counts. “McGee can be an All Star.” That is what is laughable.

            • sherlock

              18 minutes a game last season is not “ample opportunity,” Bill. Young, athletic freaks like McGee are not an abundance in the NBA, that’s why he got the $$ and KK was shown the door. We have anther KK in Moz at worst and it’s not hard to find players with KK’s ability.

              Where is this team getting blown up?! KK so far is the only player besides GK to leave our 57 win team, Iggy has a decision to make which is out of our control. One average player being traded so a player with real POTENTIAL can have a shot to prove if he was worth the $$ is not “blowing up” a team. Your arguments are weak, you keep saying the same thing over and over with nothing to back up your claims that JaVale is not progressing. Watch some tape my man, his days in Washington and now. He’s not the same player. He’s being coached now, it makes a difference. He’s going to get better, when he does I bet you will be back on here saying you knew it all along.

              • Bill Riordan

                No, I would not say I knew it all along, I would say I was wrong and am shocked at how good he turned out to be and happy for him. That is actually what I would say. At what point exactly did you figure you knew me better than I know myself, anyway?

          • Bill Riordan

            And one last thing. Nobody hates McGee. Where did this pablum of “people gonna hate” come from. To say that McGee is an overpriced mediocre back up NBA center is not to hate him. He may be the nicest guy on the planet. I have no idea, but he is not an especially gifted pro basketball player. I’m done.

        • avarra

          Bill you make some good points. I believe that he got MUCH better once he got here and with Shaw – he’ll get even better. No disrespect to you, sir but I hope you’re wrong about his ceiling.

          I disagree with you about Moz having more of an upside though. I watched him play for his Russian team and he seemed to play a lot more fluidly so I know he can play much better than he has been. He’s nowhere near the talent level of Javale though.

          We’ll just have to agree to disagree on that point. But if I’m right though, you have to publicly announce your mistake on this forum – and I’ll do the same. :) … If I’m wrong… which I won’t be. :D

          • Bill Riordan

            I’m not really sure anyone cares if I announce it or not, or will even remember, but if McGee turns in to a good NBA player, I will be shocked, but happy for him, and certainly willing to admit my mistake. On the other hand, I feel pretty confident in my assessment. The most important “athletic” qualities to be good in the NBA are in my opinion 1) hand/eye coordination (that is why Magic Johnson and Larry Bird were two of the best athletes to ever play, even though neither was fast or could jump high) and 2) intelligence (again Johnson and Bird and 3) good footwork (Johnson/Bird). McGee has shown none of these. Jumping high and bench pressing alot of weight, and having low body fat are quite low down on the list actually. I am always surprised at how in love people are with vertical leaps and weight moving as defining “athleticism.” The number of basketball players who failed in the NBA and who could jump high and run fast is quite high, and it always surprises me how everyone wonders how they could have failed cuz they were so “athletic.” Even if they couldn’t catch and chew gum at the same time. But if McGee turn out to suddenly be good, I will certainly grant it, and I will even root for him, how’s that?

            • avarra

              You may be right and again – you bring up some interesting points. Just keep in mind that big men take longer to develop usually. There are exceptions (Jabbar, Chamberlain, Shaq, etc.) but in general – it usually takes longer for centers.

              • Bill Riordan

                Avarra, You are totally cool. I like you. You actually don’t insult people who disagree with you. I am gonna learn from you. I try not to be a jerk on the comments section, but some people are just so rude. You on the other hand are a human being. I could have a beer with you. I mean I think you are wrong, but if you are right I would buy you a beer and pick your mind on b-ball. Seriously, dude, you rock. Again, I think McGee, who seems like a nice human being actually, is not an especially gifted b-ball player. Well, I mean compared to me and almost every other human being on the planet, he is gifted. But he is not gonna be a starting quality center in the NBA. But if I am wrong, the drinks are on me!

              • avarra

                Thank you very much Bill. I’ll buy you a drink if you’re right. :) All this discussion for a minor trade… lol… When we (hopefully) re-sign AI the discussion will really heat up.

                Javale reminds me of Tyson Chandler’s situation. It took Chandler 5 or 6 years to really come into his own and once he did, he because pretty bada**. The next 2 years will prove me right, you’ll see.

              • Bill Riordan

                Ha! Avarra, if McGee is another Tyson Chandler, I will be thrilled for him and the Nuggets. If this happens, I am tempted to say my wife and I will buy you and your significant other dinner and drinks, though I gotta run that by her. Some ground rules. If McGee starts and averages 20pts. and 11 boards but the Nugs are 34 and 48 you don’t win. If the Nugs go something like 53-29 and he averages 11 pts. and 10 boards and is a defensive monster like Chandler you do win. Just clarifying. Any place in between we can hassle over. Good luck, but I feel confident. I also really was turned off by Shaw’s dissing of Karl and D’Antoni. I loved Shaw as a player. In fact one of my missed predictions was saying he would be a superstar and all-pro when he came into the league out of college. He still ended up a valuable player, sometimes as a starter, but mainly as a good player off the bench. But was never the player I predicted he would be. But his statements on Karl and D’Antoni, especially from someone who has never been a head coach, struck me as an appeal to the lowest common denominator, and in my view does not bode well for the future. But I guess we’ll see.

              • avarra

                Alright – You have a deal! My GF and I will buy you and your wife dinner if you prove to be correct. I will add, however, that if Javale makes significant strides this year and looks to be on the road to becoming a very good center, then we buy each other drinks and talk basketball. Other folks on this forum can certainly join us though and we’ll all talk b-ball. :D

              • sherlock

                I like avarra’s chances in this bet ;) and Bill I apologize if I offended you with my comments. I came from the Nuggets forum on ESPN, a lot of trolls over there and I get heated. I forget that this is a place where actual fans come to discuss the Nuggets, not just bash them without reason. Hopefully, we can continue to discuss the Nuggets and I will keep myself in better check! ;)

              • Bill Riordan

                It’s a date!

            • googergieger

              Guy has shown flashes of having great hand/eye coordination, especially with some of his passes(yes I know he wasn’t averaging monster assist numbers but some games he delivered great passes), and has shown flashes of great foot work. Especially when given the time to work on his post moves, which Karl never wanted to happen. Unless of course it was Andre Miller. As far as B-ball IQ goes, sometimes it comes from experience. Paul George for instance for all his superstar talk in the Miami Heat series, did a lot of boneheaded things. Just some horrible decision making in general that series. Leonard on the other hand really showed how smart a player you can become when you have the right people around you. I hate this idea that people have of McGee, that only came from Karl and Shaqtin. Washington doesn’t count. Everyone became a better player the second they left or the second they decided to turn that franchise around. They had coaches and management that just didn’t care or had no idea what they were trying to do really. In regards to what kind of team they were trying to build. And here McGee ran into a coach who is known to play his favorites no matter what.

    • Brad from Arvada

      I’m with you, Bill. Basketball IQ is more innate than learned. McGee’s had plenty of time in the league to show us all what he’s made of (as a basketball player). He doesn’t get team or his role on one, doesn’t possess feel for rhythm of the game, doesn’t understand his role or the 5 position, and on and on.There are a couple reasons why so many Nugs fans are looking at McGee with a glass-half-full posture: 1. His “breakout” playoff performance against the Lakers in 2012; and 2. We are absolutely STUCK with him and his contract — and his mom — for a while. Not many knuckleheads ever change their stripes in the league. Z-Bo Randolph is a good example of a knucklehead who did finally change his ways and become an above-avg. productive contributor to his team. I do hope McGee goes the way of Z-Bo, rather than the innumerable other goofballs who were paid millions but couldn’t buy a clue.

      • Bill Riordan

        Thanks Brad. And you are right, I was surprised by Randolph’s development, too. Agree with everything you say. If McGee is the second coming of Randolph, I will cheer him on!

  • Charliemyboy

    Not sure what cogitate means, but, to comply, I am simply stating that the trend of decisions, including KK, and even Karl, have not given me a comfort level as a 16 year Colorado Springs and now Reno Nugget fan. There is a reason for Karl using KK; he is not going to play players to see them on the court as a top 10 all time coach. At one point he was cited as being able to develop players (Carmelo and Nene couldn’t finish; Lawson will be an all-star) and now he is an afterthought. It’s sad. I just hope JaVale jells, because Mozzy is staying and doesn’t seem to have the speed. There, I hope I offered a little.

    • herpderpnuggets

      well he also used the shit out of Andre Miller…destroying the developement of many

      • Bryan

        He did the same thing with Al Harrington. Inserting his “trust” lineups at the end of the games when the young guys had gotten the team a lead and sometimes blowing those leads.

        I still remember a couple of years ago when Jordan Hamilton was on fire against the Clipper and the Nuggets were blowing them out but Karl went to his trust line up and blew the lead.

        A top 10 of all time coach with no ring? That’s a ridiculous assertion.

      • Bill Riordan

        First off to Bryan, Jordan Hamilton wasn’t in the league “a couple of years ago” he was a freshman playing at Texas. Secondly, he sucks! Ok that is harsh, he is in the NBA so by definition is is a good player, but he was terrible last year, terrible! As for playing Miller, Karl did what absolutely every single coach in the league would have done, seriously every single one, cuz Miller was the best point guard on the team, as Chauncey Billups himself said recently in a local interview. Whose development exactly did he destroy? Not Stone, Stone is not an NBA point guard, he is an insurance policy in the event of a catastrophe. Miller was the only back-up point guard on the team, and again he was the best point guard on the team. So whose development exactly did he ruin? Not Fournier, who was a rookie and has a bright future I think but was not ready for significant minutes. So whose development did Miller destroy?

    • sherlock

      Well said Charlie, and I agree to an extent. Losing GK, venturing into the unknown is scary. We’ve made the playoffs every year since GK got here it’s been great. This year was the breaking point though. We may have over achieved during the season, which brought super high hope for the playoffs. I totally did not see the Warriors beating our brains out in the first round. I knew they would be tough but we just came off a stretch of beating Memphis, San Antonio and OKC, I saw us winning in 5 maybe 6 games. Something has to change we can’t keep hoping that GK will change, look at the GS series, he can’t adapt. The roster we have is great, there’s no need to blow it up and start over, I think a new voice is going to do wonders.

  • googergieger

    Oh right I forgot about you, Matt. I think I stood up for you once. I mean seriously, “Koufos is amazing, McGee is shaqtin a fool!” camp, do you all just not take the playoffs or any time Koufos went up against a good to great caliber center into account? What about the flashes McGee showed? What about the fact that even when McGee played great Karl would limit him and when he played bad, he’d get yanked immediately? Nothing else into account except a sound bite and idea from a coach who is damn near universally agreed to be the reason we failed in the playoffs yet again? Okay.

    • Bill Riordan

      Great “flashes” and $3 will get you a cafe latte.

      • googergieger

        And that cafe latte will probably put up more resistance against Andrew Bogut, than Koufos ever did.

        • Bill Riordan

          Ha! That’s not bad, actually. I still think you are living in a dream world on McGee, but the comment, I liked it!

        • avarra

          No disrespect to anyone here but Googergieger, that was funny! And unfortunately true. lol

          • Bill Riordan

            And yet, Koufos was still better than McGee! Nothing shameful about getting beaten by a healthy Bogut. The Nuggets bad fortune was that Bogut was healthy and able to play significant minutes for the first time in forever. And I know Koufos, is no match for Bogut. Still, he’s better than McGee. Again, Avarra, like you alot!

            • avarra

              I like you too Bill. Actually I think everyone here is pretty cool. I have to say though that it’s awesome getting a chance to talk Nuggets with people. My GF’s eyes glaze over when I start talking basketball. lol

          • sherlock

            The only point that myself and a handful of others are trying to make is that we have to give McGee a chance. Maybe he is who he has been the last 5 seasons. I’m hoping that isn’t the case, that with some consistent minutes and good coaching the dude can do more then block shots and dunk the crap out of the ball. It maybe wishful thinking, but I want to be in the WC Finals or the Finals and KK as our starting center isn’t getting us there. I want McGee to succeed because he’s got the God given talent and with a little hard work could be the piece we need to take down Miami or OKC. I see greatness in this team and am tired of the mediocre crap the last 8 seasons.

  • theweatherman53

    I was really sad to see Kosta leave. He really did have an excellent understanding of the game and had a pretty nice touch around the rim. I’m of the opinion that he’s a year or two away from being one of the best two way centers in the league. (Oddly enough the best two way center in the league is now Kosta’s teammate and new mentor).

  • theweatherman53

    I’d also say that Javale McGee is not in any way better than KK. About the only thing he did better was block shots. KK was a good defender who was usually in the right place and was pretty much the only big who could properly defend on a switch. McGee was a poor straight up defender, but decent as a help defender. The biggest difference is that Koufus had a decent offensive game when given the opportunity, whereas Javale is an athletic freak with a pretty miserable post up game. So to sum up, KK was a good defender and a decent post up big, and Javale is a bad all around defender but a decent help defender and a mess on offense.