Cavs zealous for Moz: Three reasons why the Nuggets should oblige

The guy the Cavs are trying to trade for is Tim[ofey] Mozgov from the Denver Nuggets. He played with David [Blatt] with the Russian national team. (…) They have been trying to trade for him for the last six, eight weeks. – See more at: http://hoopshype.com/rumors/tag/denver_nuggets#sthash.JXQ9HU5P.dpuf

On Tuesday, longtime LeBron James and Cleveland Cavaliers reporter Brian Windhorst made an appearance on ESPN Cleveland radio and dropped the following Nuggets-related tidbit:

The guy the Cavs are trying to trade for is Tim[ofey] Mozgov from the Denver Nuggets. He played with David [Blatt] with the Russian national team… They have been trying to trade for him for the last six, eight weeks… That’s the guy they want to get their hands on.

After the breakout season Mozgov had last year it’s understandable how most fans would harbor an aversion to this news. I too would like to see Mozgov in a Nuggets uniform for two more years, the length of his current contract. But if I’m Tim Connelly, I’m listening to what David Griffin has to say on the phone. Here’s three reasons why…

1. The Nuggets have a surplus of big men. Count: Timofey Mozgov, JaVale McGee, Jusuf Nurkic, Kenneth Faried, Darrell Arthur, J.J. Hickson, Jerrelle Benimon. That’s seven power forwards and centers, not to mention guys like Quincy Miller and Danilo Gallinari, both at least 6-9 and capable of playing power forward for extended stretches at a time. Include those two and the Nuggets are up to nine players who can pass as power forwards or centers. If you’re following the basic math I’ve presented (can you even call it that?) then you understand why the Nuggets should listen to the Cavs: numbers. Pure numbers. The Nuggets have enough of one thing (bigs) to consider listening when people inquire about them.

2. Jusuf Nurkic is a manchild superhuman cyborg titan god poised to devour all things living, deceased or in between on his way to dominance in the NBA. OK, maybe not. But I’d like to think this is the case. Based on his numbers throughout his early and precocious career, you have to think this is the case. And he’s heading to Denver this year. Why, therefore, should he sit around all year behind Mozgov and McGee if he’s as talented as we (meaning I) think he is? People learn to swim best by being thrown in a bottomless pool knowing the only way to survive is to stay afloat. Learning to play basketball at an NBA pace is no different. Nurkic needs to be thrown in the fire. He needs to hit the ground running — or at least trying to run. He is clearly the Nuggets’ center of the future; why bench him for an entire season? As much as I love Mozgov’s defense and improvement over the last year, he’s also 28 years old. Nurkic turned 20 last week. Start JaVale McGee at center, bring Nurkic off the bench, watch him develop, work out his growing pains, improve. It’s the best way to move forward.

3. Mozgov’s value has never been higher. For all we know this is the highest it will ever get. With so many solid bigs on the roster, including two centers, the Nuggets are in pole position, stocked with assets, poised to parlay their chips into prized winnings — if they’re savvy enough. The Nuggets should not accept an average haul for Mozgov. They need some significant goods in return. The Cavs don’t have many players to offer, but they do have draft picks, and lots of them. If the Cavs offer one of their more appealing first-round draft picks, the Nuggets should listen. And if the Nuggets can’t find what they’re looking for from the Cavs, the shouldn’t hesitate to seek out a third party with more intriguing resources.

To be clear: In no way am I advocating for trading Timofey Mozgov just to trade him. The Nuggets are a much better team with him than without him. If no deal gets consummated, I consider that a win for the Nuggets. What I’m suggesting is that the Nuggets at least listen, listen good and hard. Are the Cavs desperate? Are they willing to trade more than what Mozgov is worth? How hard are they pushing to get a deal done? Are they becoming myopic? Determined? Obsessive? If this is the case, the Nuggets might be wise to oblige. As we fortunately witnessed in the Carmelo Anthony saga, a team consumed by the quest to obtain one player sometimes overvalues that asset and in turn surrenders much more than they should. Perhaps Tim Connelly can coax the Cavs into a similar situation? Given the Nuggets depth, Mozgov’s value and the Cavs’ insistence on completing a trade, Tim Connelly doesn’t appear to have much to lose.

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The guy the Cavs are trying to trade for is Tim[ofey] Mozgov from the Denver Nuggets. He played with David [Blatt] with the Russian national team. (…) They have been trying to trade for him for the last six, eight weeks. – See more at: http://hoopshype.com/rumors/tag/denver_nuggets#sthash.JXQ9HU5P.dpuf
  • Dan Mikanmaster

    Agree fully, and adding to point 3 is Mozzy’s contract – he’s underpaid as a starter but if the Nuggs wait another year his trade value plummets as most teams look at him and say “well, he’s a free agent after this year.”

    Also – there are other teams out there besides the Cavs. Come December or January and there will be a couple of surprise teams looking for that one extra piece for their 2nd half push. Wait for that market and Nuggs could get a real nice haul for Mozzy.

  • gimpcom187

    pretty much the only thing you can say the cavs have and would likely part with that the nuggets would semi covet is the Grizzlies protected pick which is unlikely to materialize for a few seasons (It’s protected 1-5 and 15-30).

    I consider this team on the path to a rebuild certainly in 2 years when most of the contracts will be up. I would do this trade based on that. Get Nurkic minutes and go into full trade for assets mode come trade deadline.

    • mike gomez

      we have assets, either wait and see what they could do together, if it goes wrong we have enough pieces to trade for a star one becomes available. im pretty sure that’s what tim is waiting for

  • MTIG

    Why not push the envelope.. Mosgov and Foye for Waiters and Thompson..
    Works in the cap. Picks can be added to even value.

    Cleveland doesn’t mortgage their future picks. Players are locked for the two years. Cleveland is flush with PF’s and they do not need a top SG . They need a top rim protector off the bench in the worst way……

    Denver….Thompson one and done or competes with Faried. AAA has his work cut out for him.

    • mike gomez

      cavs will not part ways with either one them, lebron wont allow it.

      • MTIG

        So… what do they have to offer and how do they clear cap space if neither leave..?
        LBJ signed max and last I heard he can’t increase the cap space…. Big Cleveland hit if they go over.

        Waiters makes the most sense. Cleveland would still need to shed a half million straight up. Thompson is a logical throw – away… Can’t add Chandler or anyone else …so give value (depth) like Foye makes sense and even add one of our newly signed from the dev. league….unless you have a third team to jump in.

        LBJ knows the importance of a solid big.

        I’d rather give up McGee than Mosgov and use the dollars wisely. No takers…
        This is what Ma U and Karl have left.

        A great start to cleaning up their mess!
        (BTW) …yes… Foye was acquired by the new regime.
        as a response to the idiotic trade for Andre I.
        We unload Harrington’s wonderful contract, gave away a top 10 pick and AAA.

        • mike gomez

          they have noting, that the point. that was its highly unlikely ends up there . its most likely they offer a draft pick and haywood expiring contract.

          • MTIG

            Don’t get me wrong… I agree with you (and we both want the Nuggets to get the best….in a game or a trade)

            Cleveland has little that they “want” to give up but the article states.. they want Moz and have tried for 6+ weeks…
            They determine what price they will pay..

            If I am not mistaken… Cap numbers: Hayward is 2.2 Million this year, Mosgov 4.5 million. Draft pick counts as nothing in the cap…

            Look at Cleveland’s salaries – Waiters or Thompson have to be in the mix whether straight up or add other teams to make it work..

            It is highly unlikely with what I see…. but obviously “Brian” has a little more insight and is closer to the teams than you or I

        • gimpcom187

          You asked why not push the envelope? He explained they aren’t giving up those guys. It’s not that hard. I think they COULD get thompson though or 3 way more likely. I highly doubt the nugs give up Mozgov as he is their only above average defender in their entire crop of bigs. Maybe if the year is on pace for under 40 wins come February they will realize they need to rebuild and make trades. Otherwise I doubt it.

          Your tirade against Karl and Masai is silly. They took a team to 57 wins without even ONE top 25 ballplayer. That is virtually unheard of. Its unfortunate injuries and a hot and much healthier GSW team (and vERY cold ty lawson) cost them a legit shot to win that series. (they would have gotten smashed by the spurs either way).

          • MTIG

            Your response below says that they may trade for the Grizz draft pick. How does that work in a cap situation?
            Cut Waiters?

            Back to you…” it’s not that hard”? Nice……

            You and I see the Karl situation different. I don’t remember each game even though I watch most and probably have more years as a season ticket owner than you… ….but I do know –

            They were “one and done” with home court advantage in your “epic” 57 game win season with no talent.

            How many years out of how many… before you move on? No top 25 Superstar? But you praise Andre Ig.. as one.. Karl had Melo for many years before Iggy.

            We won a lot of games!!!
            If I’m not mistaken 10 years in the play-offs and 9 years of one and done.

            Let me say that again.. 9 years .. One and done…

            With how many years with a top 10 player? Melo…?
            Who survives with this production?

            We all hear…No one wants to play in Denver… better find a way for people to come…obviously Karl was not that cog.

            Karl is very likeable! I wish he could have won for us but the definition of insanity applies to his team… do the same thing over and over and over… and hope for a different result.

            Masai? I might be too harsh as a Nugget fan, Im ok with that. I didn’t appreciate him leaving!
            When I objectively look at all the personnel moves. I believe he was given too much credit for a stupid move by NYK and little blame on many silly moves he made.

            I want this new regime to succeed and I think their odds are good…. I want a team that competes and it starts at the top.
            I like the coach (Shaw – brings a toughness that has been missing for decades), Owner that wants to win and a possible up and comer at GM ( not like Phil would come here)

            Funny we are talking about a Mosgov trade for quality players.
            Karl played him for what…. 366 minutes.. in that great year of one and done…That would be less than 8 games in a very long season.

            I feel good about the direction and my team is tied for first.

            Yours?

            • gimpcom187

              1 you must not be paying much attention to the game with your season tickets because you said 9 years one and done conveniently forgetting 09. Second 13 playoffs were the FIRST season during Karl coaching they lost a series to a team with less wins. EVER. 1 Time. ONCE. And that was with their best 2 way player out and 4th best player (faried) playing mediocre with his bum ankle. Seems like you forgot a lot. They were supposed to lose every other season.

              When you put something in quotes it implies you are quoting someone. “epic” wasn’t written by me so Im not sure why you would want to put it in quotes. If you meant to mock you could italicize or all caps it. nonetheless go back through the last 5-10 years and find another team that won 55 plus games without at least one player on the team you could easily claim as top 25. Iguodala is probably in that next tier of 26-40. I have maintained that OVER and OVER and OVER again from the day he got on the team. The hope was that 2 of Faried, Lawson, gallo and mcgee could develop into legit top 25 going into 2012-13. It hasn’t occurred and likely never will. (Faried has a 10% shot and Lawson probably still 10%)

              If you read the ESPN article or knew anything about the cavs they just made a trade to get multiple non-guarunteed contracts. Mozgov doesn’t make much money. He would fit into that money.

              Melo hasnt EVER been a top 10 player unless you disregard defense. Billups was at worst his equal and probably a better player when both were here. Even over the last 2 years when Melo has increased his offensive efficiency some he is really borderline top 10 (he is in the 20s in real plus minus (in the 50s on a per minute basis) and in the low double digits in the aggregate comprehensive stats like Win shares 13th (though 21st per minute) and PER 9th which doesn’t take defense into account much) It’s pretty obvious from the last 4 seasons of melo is fools gold unless you see him as the CLEAR number 2 on a team.

              what in the world are you talking about: my team is tied for first” You “want”ing and hope” has nothing to do with reality. I want to win the lottery and the 5 times a year I buy a ticket I hope I win. doesn’t make it likely.

              You feel good about going from 57 wins to 34 (granted some of that fall from grace was due to injuries, but not all). Toughness increased in what way? Look if you haven’t figured out Karl was certainly the best coach this team had since either doug moe or Larry Brown and likely will be the best coach this team has for the next decade plus you’re living in a fantasy land.

              • MTIG

                Interesting post.

                I could throw a few slams but I’m not interested in your state. Is this a Nugget blog?

                Did not forget about 08-09.???
                No…. that was why it was 9 of 10…. was it 8 of 9? sorry….

                08-09 …Karl,,, lost me.
                Melo took on Kobe and did great. Kobe defers to Bynum Karl lost it and Bynum was a star. Small ball does not win.Bynum never succeeded again.

                Mello and Billups equal… umhh… We got screwed by NYK if you are correct.. and worse for you..Karl / and ma u…had both and lost…

                ESPN story tells you -Multiple non-guaranteed contracts by the Cavs?
                That is a new one….
                Explain …. All that I see are guaranteed ” This year”

                How do you make the salaries disappear? Mosgov doesn’t make anything? I see 4.5 million…

                Karl is the best coach for this team? Only Moe and Brown were better.

                I’m living in a fantasy land?
                I want change for improvement…….

                You?

              • gimpcom187

                Im tired of looking stuff up for you. stop being lazy. article says Cavaliers get: Guard John Lucas III and forwards Erik Murphy and Malcolm Thomas mostly non-guarunteed contracts.

                Jazz get: Forward Carrick Felix, a 2015 second-round pick and cash considerations

                http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/11253288/trade-grades-cavaliers-clear-space-kevin-love-chase

                Im gonna stop wasting my time as you keep saying things that are clearly untrue and provable by stats. 09 playoffs the nuggets had ZERO average wing defenders. Hence Kobe averaged 34 points on 48% shooting with 12 FTs per game at 90%. Melo did attempt to play some defense on Kobe but it was not a good display

                Andrew Bynum 7.8 pts and 3 rebounds per game. He only played 20 minutes a game because of foul trouble. That is who you claim was the most impactful Laker in that series? In reality he was probably the FIFTH most valuable laker in that series behind Pau (who was pretty close to Kobe with 17.5 points and 12.5 rebounds and 2.3 blocks) Ariza who covered Melo great after game 1 and Lamar Odom.

                Next time you make some completely inaccurate claim spend 5 minutes looking up the scenario. As a clear nuggets FANATIC your memory is faulty.

                http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2009_WCF.html

                Billups was 33? when he was traded. That’s old for a guard. He was an unfortunate loss they had to incur to fit the salaries. Also in rounds 1 and 2 of the 09 playoffs Billups was AMAZING. much better than melo who did very well as he was a top 25 player going up against 2 teams that didn’t have a wing stopper. Similar to lamarcus aldridge last year crushing Rockets when they had no one to guard him, but just OK against the spurs.

              • Native Nugget

                Hate to get in the middle. Agree Karl was a very good regular season coach but there are two questions that stick out for me: when did he over perform in the playoffs? and why has no one hired him since he was fired? For years I believed in Karl and made excuses year after year for why it wasn’t his fault that the Nuggs failed again. While there were some legit reasons, in the end I came to believe that Karl was too much of an individualist for his own good. The boring ordinary fact of the NBA is that a team has to play good D and execute in the half-court to win a title. Karl refused to believe he couldn’t outsmart this simple fact. He would rather lose with style than win with common methods. In an odd way he was both a genius and a stubborn fool. His genius allowed him to take innovative approaches that maximized his players talent during the regular season, his stubbornness made him ignore focusing on the 2 fundamental things a team has to do. I think the reason he hasn’t been hired is that other teams have come to see this truth.

              • gimpcom187

                no one has hired him because he isn’t interested in going to mediocre teams. GSW wanted Kerr. Memphis only let go of coach to keep their assistant. Clippers went after Doc who is one of 5-7 current coaches you can argue as clearly better than Karl. No one else would a 60 something coach be interested in. Cleveland in retrospect, but that owner is unstable and the team had pretty mediocre talent prior to Lebron. Karl is waiting for a team like New orleans (with a star) or Houston to open up.

                In seattle his teams were consistently top 10 defense. Teams RARELY end up top 10 in defense without a top tier big. Denver never really had a rim protector so they maximized as a top 9 -11 for a few years. You need 2 crazy good wings in prime a la Heat/Bulls to pull it off. Nugs were 11th. Look Karl isn’t some all time top 10 coach. Its just people on this site are unrealistic about what this team should have done and will do based on talent. Karl is a very good coach unlikely to be matched and extremely unlikely to be exceeded for a good decade. The coaches that are better don’t leave for long periods of time and if they do leave it’s usually for high pay on teams with multiple all-stars OR essentially running the team (Doc, Stan van gundy, Phil Jackson in shaq era, etc etc)

                The talent on this team did NOT warrant 57 wins. so you are ridiculing Karl for maximizing the talent (and getting unlucky that 2 of top 4 players were either out or playing at 2/3 max). This playofff stuff is silly. They were never the favorites in a loss other than GSW. The talent was meh other than 2009 and 2010 playoffs.

              • heykyleinsf

                here’s the link about Karl wanting to coach the Cavs..

                http://www.midwestsportsfans.com/2014/05/report-george-karl-wants-cleveland-cavaliers-job/

                you answered your own question about me supposedly hating him by actually reading what I said.

                Anything else I can do for you while I’m up?

              • gimpcom187

                Let me start off with a thank you for taking the time to link. Nothing about birdman?

                So an article repeating a tweet said one time by a guy who says “one thing I keep hearing out of chicago is Karl wants the cleveland job” I also saw an article from 3 weeks earlier suggesting Karl wanted the President position of the cavs. Look like i said a quote from him or from someone he is close to and reputable source. It is just BS in the wind otherwise. These guys are looking for hits on their twitter accounts.

                I have heard Karl say specifically he thinks the New Orleans job is a great spot (last year on sportscenter).

                You said one niceish thing about Karl vs. 200 negative. while saying he was a horrible playoff coach despite very little to no evidence to support that especially concerning the nuggets. Im gonna go with the 200 still. Thanks.

              • gimpcom187

                Ive gone through all that stuff numerous times on this site. feel free to go through my posts. Im not interested in writing again. Suffice to say there have been 3 potential openings Karl would have been interested in GSW, clips and Griz. Clips got a better coach. GSW and Griz had a choice in house or in my mind at their firing of coach.

              • Native Nugget

                Lot of legit points. Lack of talent and injuries may have tainted Karl’s legacy which is sad. I actually have a lot of respect for what he’s achieved in the NBA. There are few coaches who have been as successful and he’s done it with different teams across a long time span which proves he was always adapting. It’s also true that we may not see another coach of his caliber on the Nuggs for a long time. That being said, I still remember watching playoff games and repeatedly feeling that his style and his in game adjustments made him easier to coach against in a longer series. This first became apparent when his Seattle team lost to an inferior Nuggets team (injuries and lack of talent were not a factor). We won only 4 games total in the 03/04 series against Minnesota, the 05/06 series against the Clippers and the 09/10 series against Utah. Talent and injuries were factors but by the time we lost to Utah my position on Karl had changed. IMO he got out-coached. It’s possible to respect him and still discern that he had weaknesses.

              • gimpcom187

                05/06 clippers had more talent and more wins and won. Nene was injured that whole season, kenyon martin played for 35 minutes in two games of that series and GREG BUCKNER played 25 minutes per game in the series. Clippers went out of their way to semi tank last week to make sure they got the nugs instead of 60 win Mavs. (and be in stoudemireless phx bracket rather than spurs).

                2010 you may be forgetting Karl was not coaching the team as he was recovering from cancer treatment. Chauncey billups essentially said the loss was due to not having Karl. In addition the two teams had the same record. After the 09 run if anything I would say the loss to Utah solidified the concept that Karl did a great job coaching in 09. That is the unfortunate thing for the nugs billups run. They never had the real opportunity to build on 09 as Karl was out in 2010 and Melo forced the trade in 2011. 09 didn’t have a legit wing defender but afflalo was brought in for that.

                03/04 Minnesota Karl wasn’t coaching the team. Your gripe is with bzdelik though that team wasn’t as talented as minnesota who won 58 games that season.

              • Native Nugget

                Thanks of the slice of humble pie, forgot 2010 was the year Karl was out and 04 was the last of Bzdelik’s reign. I hear you on the defense of Karl. Beside Doug Moe, no coach has had more success for the the Nugs yet he’s treated as if he wronged the organization. The irony is that his ability to squeeze so much out of the players contributed to higher playoff expectations. I’m guilty of writing off some of Karl’s achievements for that reason.
                Your a staunch defender of Karl but I’m unclear how you stand on his postseason coaching. Aside from the feeling he was dealing with a lack of talent and some ill timed injuries, if you weren’t countering other perceptions on this site, what case would you make for or against Karl’s coaching style?

              • heykyleinsf

                No NN.. you had it right the first time…

                Right after the season ended.. before the finals
                and obviously before LeBron said he was going back to Cleveland.. and obviously before they won the #1 draft pick.
                Karl was jumping up and down about the Cavs saying…
                “pick me!!” “pleassee?? Pick me!!!”
                we’re talking the team that won the lottery the last 2 out of 3 years and was in the mix in the last five…
                the very definition of mediocrity.
                We’re talking otherwise… some 25 head coaching vacancies come and gone since Karl was fired.
                I’ll say it slow.
                NOBODY
                ….
                WANTS
                ..
                HIM.
                For a lot of reasons.
                He’s horrible in the playoffs and has a bad reputation with being difficult to his players… splitting the team in to his favorites and pariahs.
                IDK why it keeps coming up
                It reminds me of all the Tebow fans not wanting to let go..
                It’s over. He will never coach in the NBA again.
                No taking away what he did for us..
                A lot of great memories.. but it’s over.

              • Native Nugget

                Too funny. Appreciate the humor.

                I haven’t changed my position that Karl’s style was not a good fit for the playoffs. I just didn’t check some of my facts and I got Gimp’s point about defending a coach that brought so much positive to the franchise. I’m also unclear/curious if Gimp is making a case that Karl’s playoff coaching is above average or if he’s just defending against broad-stroke dismissiveness from other posters.

                It’s strange to think that we may not see Karl coaching again. He has a ton to offer but he’s a tough fit. He’s older, would demand a high salary, may be perceived as having health risks, doesn’t have a history of strong playoff performance, tends to play favorites and is loath to give rookies playing time. An established team would have to question if Karl can get them deeper in the playoffs and a young team would have to question if he would be the strongest developer of talent. Still, there are a lot of teams who would be much better off with him than their current coaches. Hope he lands one last job and thrives.

              • heykyleinsf

                I would be shocked to see him courtside again.
                I don’t buy that he is being picky.. he would have taken
                absolutely any position open. Like I said.. some 25 have come and gone without even a request to interview him.

                There’s also a youth movement for coaches… suprisingly after Pop seems the gold standard. Or maybe because he’s been such an amazing coach for the same team for so long.. Spurs are lucky.

                Of course I have fond memories for GK.
                We could have done a lot worse.
                He helped the team a lot.

                He just has shortcomings and I don’t think that anyone can fool themselves in to thinking he will change the way he does things at this point.
                I’m not sure about HOF career.. tend to doubt it.. there are better coaches still waiting.. but for us? Glad he was a part of this team.

                But it’s over. For reasons.

              • gimpcom187

                Wow! that is this first positive thing i have ever seen you say about Karl. I see you moving in the right direction.

              • gimpcom187

                and then there is this:

                coachthorpe david b. thorpe
                Watching Faried makes me think of 1 thing-the Nuggets should have kept Karl and that team (mostly) intact. They were uniquely suited to win.

                and this regarding team USA:
                coachthorpe david b. thorpe
                Their depth and their style of play is like the Nuggets from two seasons ago, compared to this field. Hard to match for 40 minutes.

                and this: coachthorpe david b. thorpe
                Faried can struggle with structure, but his fit on this team and this coach can not be overstated. Relentless energy, surrounded by talent.

                It’s almost exactly how I talk about faried. Maybe I should get paid half a million a year. ;-)

              • MTIG

                Heykyleinsf. – appreciate your comments. Gimp will never give up on King George..
                .
                Facts are facts….
                King George
                *** Play-off record… 80 wins and 105 losses
                *** 22 years in the play-offs and only 5 years above .499%
                *** 93/94 top record in the NBA… one and done.

                I mean no disrespect for George Karl! He has done a very good job and I appreciate him coming to Denver.

                I also appreciated Larry Brown and he “never” won a title with “probably” the best talent EVER assembled.

                That said… lets get rid of the old.. and encourage the new staff and players!

                Gimp…
                George would not have come with his great profile without a say in the
                players he wanted. Didn’t see anyone else jumping to hire him back then. He developed and won? Very little….

                You tell us he is “waiting” for a great situation…. I say he did his best.

                Nuggets were bad and he had the chance to mold as he wanted. It did not work!

                Most of us want and expect that we are going to be better…

                Even Ty Lawson believes people are sleeping on this team.

                Why are you on this blog?

                Doesn’t appear your a fan of the Nuggets.

              • gimpcom187

                Just for a background on HOF coaches: Popovich during the richard Jefferson era lost a 1st round series 2vs7 and 1vs8 partially because Jefferson was mediocre and ginobili played mediocre due to health. Pat Riley lost as a 2 seed (12 more wins) vs. 7 seed to NYK in 98 and as the 3 seed (4 more wins) in 01 getting swept by charlotte (tim hardaway was hurt). Stan van gundy lost as a 52 win team to a 44 win Hawks team in 2011. Point being ALL coaches lose some series they are expected to win if given enough chances. Jackson avoided that, but he spent all but 3-4 seasons with TWO top 10 guys in the league in their prime.

                Karl was about average in the playoffs. Look at the records of EVERY series he coached for nuggets prior to GSW. They lost when they were the worse record team and won when they had the better record. I think the idea that he didn’t try to change up things in the playoffs is unfair. In GSW he tried lots of different lineups. His main advantage of going small with Gallo AND chandler was gone. He had no one to hide ty lawson on (he is a below average defender) in that series. And faried played mediocre in that series because of his ankle injury. Given ty shot mediocre for the series and atrociously from 3pt land and GSW had easily the best player in the series getting to six games and down 3 points with 48 seconds left was not a bad showing for this team. (which became even more clear after GSW gave the spurs a scare in round two, of which I have yet to see any karl hater acknowledge how good that team is/was).

                The talent on this team other than 09 and 10 playoffs has always been below top 4 in the West (at least 1-8 which is all that matters in the playoffs). If you want a shot to get out of the first round in the West the last 10 years you better either have 1 top 10 guy or two top 25 guys. Melo was a top 25ish talent when people pretended he was top 10. Allen Iverson was a similarly overrated talent his entire career and he was a shell of his prime self at that point. He was out of the league a year and a half after the nugs. (High volume mediocre efficiency perimeter guys that play below average to poor defense are almost always overrated by all-star/mvp/all-nba voting.) The 2013 team was clearly stated to be better for regular season than postseason as they lacked a go to scorer/creator, or top level rim protector or any guy you could even consider a top 10 guy.

                My contention with Karl and this team is: that Karl was essentially maxing out the talent on this team unless you got a top 5 or so coach to replace him (van gundy, poppovich, carlisle, doc). So either you hope to make a major upgrade in addition to keeping Iguodala and keep Karl or you realize this team maxes out as an easy out in round 2 (without adding an all-nba talent) and you go into a medium rebuild. Those are the two choices. Fire Karl because he wasn’t getting enough out of our clearly WCF worthy talent was not an honest appraisal of the team. It’s in worse shape now given the medium to minor downgrade in front office (masai is one of the top 5 gms so nuggets front office may still be good), medium to minor downgrade in coach and medium to minor downgrade in talent.

              • Native Nugget

                Got it. I so love talkin hoops. Appreciate the perspective.

              • MTIG

                Native Nugget and Heykyleinsf. – appreciate your comments. Gimp will never give up on King George..
                .
                Facts are facts….
                King George
                *** Play-off record… 80 wins and 105 losses
                *** 22 years in the play-offs and only 5 years above .499%
                *** 93/94 top record in the NBA… one and done.

                I mean no disrespect for George Karl! He has done a very good job and I appreciate him coming to Denver.

                I also appreciated Larry Brown and he “never” won a title with “probably” the best talent EVER assembled.

                That said… lets get rid of the old.. and encourage the new staff and players!

                Gimp… George would not have come with his great profile without a say in the players he wanted. Didn’t see anyone else jumping to hire him back then. He developed and won? Very little….

                You tell us he is “waiting” for a great situation…. I say he did his best.

                Nuggets were bad and he had the chance to mold as he wanted. It did not work!

                Most of us want and expect that we are going to be better…

                Even Ty Lawson believes people are sleeping on this team.

                Why are you on this blog?

                Doesn’t appear your a fan of the Nuggets.

              • Native Nugget

                Hey MTIG, good to meet you. This may seem like a left turn but when I opened the computer this morning the first news on the screen was about ISIS beheading another American. It struck me that I come to this site in particular as a refuge. I love talking basketball, I learn a lot from posters like yourself, Heykyleinsf and Gimp, and I really appreciate it when folks can articulate their different points of view while keeping respect. There are some serious issues in the world and if we can’t talk b-ball…

                In this case I lean toward your perspective that Karl had influence that he didn’t use to create a stronger playoff team. That being said, Gimp made a well researched argument that when Karl lost in the playoffs he had less talent and injury issues. Engagement with different perspectives has often brought me the most meaningful insights. I would hate to see anyone of us who cares enough to research and articulate their b-ball perspectives be viewed as non-fan.

                I’m with you on it being time to embrace the new leadership. I’m excited about the teams potential, Shaw’s potential, and the potential of the front office. While I’m not counting my chickens… I’m very hopeful for the next few years.

              • gimpcom187

                nuggets made the playoffs the season before Karl came. Not sure what your definition of “bad” is but it doesn’t meet mine. you don’t just mold a team. Talent and health are important to that.

              • gimpcom187

                please link Karl saying pick me or a reputable article quoting him or a confidant. as our interaction have proven over and over you often say things that are untrue that I have to waste my time disproving. I say waste my time because you are close minded and negative. I don’t mind putting in time for posters like native because they are open to seeing another perspective.

                Case in point your obsession with Bird. We had a clear interaction back in the playoffs where your notions were CLEARLY disproved on the timeline of when bird wasn’t played anymore and your timeline for when his false charges were proven false was WAYYYYYYYYY off. I spent time looking up articles for you and you blatantly just said, “well Im not really interested in that” as if reality has nothing to do with your feelings on a situation.

                Your obsession of hatred of iggy and karl reminds me of tebow fans. People who support Karl are very pragmatic calling him what he is. Very good. Not great

  • Native Nugget

    While I’m willing to consider trading Mozzy IF we get offered a good enough return, I disagree with your first point “nine players who can pass as power forwards or centers”. I guess it depends on your definition of ‘pass’. IMO, any team serious about succeeding in the Western playoff bracket can’t afford to put below average players on the court at center. Mozzy is a serviceable/average center and the other players you mentioned would be below average at best in that position. I think you stretched things when you included Kenneth Faried, Darrell Arthur, Jerrelle Benimon, Quincy Miller and Danilo Gallinari as passable centers. Only JaVale and Hickson are real options today for consistent time at center, and both are underwhelming. Yes JaVale could progress but that’s a question mark and I think we all know Hickson is a power forward who doesn’t grock defense.

    I would like to see Yusuf playing against NBA level talent before cutting Mozzy loose. If he shows as much potential as many are hoping, then I’d like to see us utilize the interest in Mozzy to put together a package that includes Hickson. We get rid of a bad contract, some bad defense, open up development time for Yusuf and possibly get a meaningful player or pick in return.

  • joefresco

    The X factor here is that many centers are late bloomers, like Tyson Chandler (and to some extent, Joakim Noah and Marc Gasol, with DeAndre Jordan being another candidate to make a leap). But the Cavs may be willing to overpay a little, and it might be worth it to start to stockpile some picks.

  • Furious_Stylez

    Until I hear a strong trade offer, this is a no go. This team has no idea what McGee is going do on the court or if he can stay healthy. Nurkic is an unknown quantity. Does anyone really want to see Hickson at C again? It would be different if Gallo were a post up player, but he’s not. Faried is a defensive liability and Arthur lacks an offensive game.

    Mozgov is exactly what Denver needs and is on a very team-friendly deal. I’d wait until the trade deadline before considering a trade to see what we have.

  • EWilson

    I wouldn’t be opposed to listening, but this seems like a situation where the Nuggets would need to bring in a third team if they were looking for a player in return. In addition, given the number of competent NBA players they have on their roster, I’d think a 2-for-1 deal (ie Mozgov + say Hickson for a stronger player from the third team) would be ideal. I’m a little less keen on a deal for just a pick because the Nuggets roster is relatively young and they could use someone with solid NBA experience over another flyer in the draft. (Assuming they aren’t going to get a top 5 pick, which seems likely.)

  • MacKenzie Pantoja

    I don’t disagree with the idea of trading Mozgov, but I think Kalen is forgetting that Nurkic is barely 20. I love the pick, don’t get me wrong, but at his age and lack of experience I doubt he’ll be a good player from the get go. I think he’s Nikola Pekovic 2.0, but even Pekovic wasn’t great as a rookie. He was a fouling machine, and based on his Eurostats, Nurkic might average 8 fouls per 40 minutes his rookie season like Pek did